Wise Readers,
Aren?t Viv and Clark too young to have a solid marriage anyway?? If you?re in a LDR, how can you max your chances for it to work out?? Why is sacrifice a dirty word?? And what are The 4 Types of people who initiate a relationship that?s long distance from the start??
Read on!?
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From Diane: ??I Have SO Many Questions? (and my own LDR!)?
I have SO many questions brought up by this post. I?m in a LDR myself with no foreseeable end (and it?s not due to our choice but due to our respective employers/vocations. The only way we could be physically together is to quit our jobs, and we?re both in fields where it is very difficult to find work. And we believe a) that both people need to come to the relationship as equal partners and b) that each one of us would be unhappy being unable to use our education and follow the vocational path that we each feel called to.
So first question: what is the research on the success of relationships when one partner has to sacrifice a career in order to be with the other one? (We?re both willing to take less-desirable jobs to be near the other. The fear is for one of us to be unemployed for long periods of time)
Second: how do you survive the ?whiplash? of the joy of seeing each other combined with the pain of re-separating just 2-3 days later?
Third: if we are very careful to discuss (and to argue through!) problem areas in our relationship (e.g., parenting expectations), does that increase our probability of staying together once we are able to reunite?
Fourth: Does the length of time one is in a LDR affect the ability for the couple to a) survive the separation without breaking up midway and b) successfully reunite? [My situation: When we?re finished with the next stage of our careers (2-4 years for each of us), it should be much easier to find employment near each other. While there?s no guarantee, we are very much holding out hope for this]
Finally, and unrelated to my own situation: aren?t Viv and Clark really young? What?s the likelihood of them staying together even if they go to college together? If I were advising them and knew that they were 18 years old, I?d tell them to follow their heart, too ?- but ?follow their heart? to the college that is the best fit, not to follow another person to school. Who wants to follow a boy to school and then break up along with all the other girls in the freshman dorm in October?? And perhaps the people advising Viv/Clark recognize that there are problem areas in their relationship or that one or both of them has a lot of growing up to do? at that point, saying ?It?ll work if it is meant to? might be a kinder statement than ?There?s little chance of this working, so do what?s best for each of you individually.?
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Duana?s response: ?The #1 Contributor To Most People?s Happiness Is Not A Job, It?s ________________?
Dear Diane,
Thank you for writing. It?s great to hear a new voice, and to get so many cogent questions and observations. I?m going to take them in another order.
Viv and Clark are young, but before I answered this letter publicly I had many exchanges with them. In my opinion, they?ve found the right person for one another, just a bit sooner than most. And they are not just dating?they are engaged, and have been planning a wedding for a year. Whether anyone else believes in their relationship, they have made a marital level of commitment to each other, and married people generally try to work things out favorably for both parties. They have the opportunity to do that?there are abundant colleges with solid programs in both their fields. In that case, I can?t see a reason for them to attend separate schools, nor an argument that either of them is making a significant sacrifice educationally to be together.
My personal bias is that Viv and Clark are young people, but they are still people and deserve to have their commitment taken seriously. I think they are fortunate to have found each other. A lot of us wander around for many years looking for someone trustworthy and compatible. These people are young, but mature; unfortunately, in Viv?s case in particular, she had to grow up really fast. I can?t in good conscience advise them to make a move that puts their love at risk.
(An earlier LoveScience covered how the young who plan to marry can help their chances for success, and here it is:? http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/young-love-young-marriage.html)
I think we as a culture (and perhaps as well-educated readers here) tend to forget something the science knows: Jobs and careers are generally not what make people happiest. Good relationships are. This couple has that. I?d like to see them nurture it *and* pursue their educations. It can be done.
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Duana?s response, continued: ?Why Sacrifice Is Not A Dirty Word?And What People Really Regret?
Now, Diane, to your more personal questions!
And unfortunately, cutting to the brief answer: I don?t know. The research does not necessarily address your queries, clearly important questions to you and many others, satisfactorily.
But I will make educated guesses and reveal my personal biases.
1. What?s the research on relational success when one person or the other does make a career or educational sacrifice for the other?
I don?t know of any research specifically about that, but I do know of research showing that a focus on a career ahead of a relationship often results in divorce, dissolution, or a major loss of happiness in the couple.
In other words, not making a sacrifice can result in its own version of sacrifice.
I can readily understand your fear that one or the other of you will be unemployed, but I?m heartened to hear you?re mutually willing to take less-desirable jobs to be geographically near.
Because here?s something I don?t get letters about: ?I wish I had not moved to be near my sweetie.? No. I don?t receive that letter. The letter I receive repeatedly is that of a regretful lover who let a past partner slip away: ?I followed advice to go to another university, and she met someone else and married him and I?ve never gotten over losing her.? ?Our lives are both consumed by the affair we?re having; we let each other go when we were young and when we got back in touch, we touched more than hearts.? That sort of letter.
(First loves and young loves are particularly combustible that way, as you can read at my links on young love and first love or rekindled love:
http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/when-first-love-is-true-love-re-igniting-the-old-flame.html
http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/why-not-to-look-up-that-old-flame-on-facebook-or-how-to-wrec.html)
Research on what people regret is informative here, I think. When asked what they regret, people rarely name something they tried but failed at. Instead they name the things they never gave a fair shake?things they really, really wanted but didn?t attempt in any real way.
My guess is that you would not regret finding a way to be geographically near each other, even if one or the other of you were unemployed for a while~*as long as* you?re both utterly committed to one another. If one of you is unsure about the relationship, yes, that could lead to festering resentments. And less than total commitment is generally not a good endorsement for moving, since those who are trying out commitment during a move-in sometimes continue trying it on even after vows. When either person is less than fully committed, it?s bad odds for that relationship, whether or not long distance had ever been involved.
Of course, another option you?ve probably considered is making sure you have employment before you make the move. I?m guessing if it were that easy, though, you would have already done that.
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But let?s go back to the S word: Sacrifice.
In the big picture, life is about choices?we tend to use the word ?sacrifice? when the choice involves something about a relationship, as if somehow relationships should not place us in the position of requiring choices, or choices made for relationships are automatically suspect.
Yet for everything chosen in life, isn?t there another road not taken? Sacrifice need not be a dirty word, and particularly not as applied to the one thing that really stands people the best shot of happiness. In the end, people who choose relationships over other things (including careers) are usually happiest, given that the relationship was of high quality and worth making a choice in favor of. ?People Over Things? could well be their motto.
Again, though?a lot of times, the choice we?re talking about is not that dire. Achievement and relationships need not be mutually exclusive, and I?m a big advocate of both, using what?s in your own interest as a guide when a choice must be made.? I have a doctorate and did not abandon my career, but I would not take a better position and leave my husband behind, no matter how good the position. It would be contrary to our entire family?s happiness and my own. That?s not a sacrifice, that?s my best interest.
What choice would make *you* happiest? Choosing that is not a sacrifice so much as just a smart move. I?m behind you, whatever is right for you.
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Duana?s response, continued: ?Relationships Need A Lot Of Reward Just To Survive?And Even More Reward To Be Happy?
2. ?how do you survive the ?whiplash? of the joy of seeing each other combined with the pain of re-separating just 2-3 days later??
Diane, I really don?t know. I?ve gotten letters from others who?ve asked that question, and I?ve got no good answer. I think that may just be part of the deal when you really love someone and you?re in a LDR. You could probably tell me more about the experience than I could tell you!
3. ?if we are very careful to discuss (and to argue through!) problem areas in our relationship (e.g., parenting expectations), does that increase our probability of staying together once we are able to reunite??
The research by Laura Stafford (please see references below) is more descriptive than proscriptive. That is, it tells what couples apart are doing, but doesn?t necessarily point out what they should be doing instead. My guess is that couples are avoiding the tough talks for a good reason: because there is *so much stress* involved merely in conducting a LDR and being separated, that adding arguments on top of that could put the relationship into ?not worth it? territory. I think LDR couples are essentially hedging their bets by avoiding the tough discussions and thus building some reward into what could otherwise be a truly unrewarding situation.
And relationships need reward built into them to survive. For instance, John Gottman?sresearch of married couples (who were living together) showed that just to hang on by their fingernails, they had to have five positive interactions for every one negative interaction. To be really happy, though, couples had to have *twenty* positives to one negative!?
Which brings us back to you. LDR?s simply involve a lot less interaction than geographically proximal relationships. If you add negatives, you risk tipping the odds away from success.
Solution? Add the negatives?bring up the difficult subjects?*but also add at least 20 positives for every one of the negatives*. That?s tough to do in a LDR, which I suspect is why few do it. But can it be done? I think so.
And should it be done, to protect you and your partner from the shock of unresolved Stuff when you are together? Again, I think so.
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Duana?s response (continued): ?Probabilities Aren?t Certainties?
4. ?Does the length of time one is in a LDR affect the ability for the couple to a) survive the separation without breaking up midway and b) successfully reunite??
Longer separations are indeed more difficult and more likely to result in a break-up. But that doesn?t mean it?s impossible to stay together. The research is about probabilities, not certainties. (For certainties, one consults the Magic 8 Ball, lol.)
If you can reduce the time you?re separated; if you can both make a firm decision in favor of the relationship ahead of all other concerns (or if one of you can do so without resenting it); if you can increase your positive interactions and still deal with your emotional Stuff?well, odds get better for the relationship to thrive.
The odds favor those who are geographically near, all things being equal. But plenty of LDR?s do survive even so.
I wish you the very best as you surmount the odds and stay among those success stories.
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From Thomas Smith: ?A LDR Will Work If You Want It To?
A LDR will work if you want it to, part has to do with how long you were together before the distance got in the way, second is how well you really know each other, by that I mean living habits, sleeping habits eating habits, financial habits? the whole shebang? It?s how dedicated do you want to be together and what goals have you talked about with eachother? I was in an LDR with my high school sweetheart for 2 1/2 years until she graduated high school and then we got married.? We were faithful (so I assume on her part), I know I was the whole time. We had a great marriage until other issues got in the way? not communicating very well on future plans, not enough patience on her part about my maturity, and then she turned into a control freak which I couldn?t handle eventually she left me someone she could control, imo.? But that was also the trouble with being married young which is another topic.? I loved her with everything and fought to save the relationship, but the more I fought to save it the more she wanted away from me?
In my opinion, in a LDR you really need to look down the road and discuss in foresight what you really want in a relationship, what your ideas of it are (please don?t look to reality TV for those, either), and what kind of future you want for yourself and/or him/her, ie: jobs, kids, where to live, by his/her family or yours, how to spend money or save it, personal goals and couple goals, etc.? All of these are important issues. I know that back then staying in constant contact (3,000 miles apart) cost a lot to communicate. Today?s technology almost eliminates the true distance of an LDR because of phones and Internet, there is still a daily contact made even by seeing each other not just by voice? But nothing can replace actual physical time and contact. If you really love this person and communicate this well then I would do it; ?even if it fails then chalk it up to a learning lesson in life. We don?t learn unless we fail sometimes.? Always have faith in your heart.? Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved before and learned from it?
Good Luck
Thomas Smith
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Duana?s response:
Dear Thomas, thank you so much for adding your voice and your story. You and your former wife must have done a lot of things right for your LDR to have worked so well. There are folks who do, and I?d like to know more about them. I?ll bet they?ve followed your example and counsel to discuss goals, and to put their mutual commitment first.?
Fortunately for Viv and Clark, a separation is not necessary. They get to choose. I can?t advise them to choose a needless separation. But I wish I knew more to say to those who had no choice.
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From Mr. Corvid: ?Some Rules For A LDR?
Having survived a few of these, I have a some rules regarding LDR, some of which you point out above. I?ve been on both sides of every one of these rules.
1. It is always easier to leave than be left. If you are the one moving away, your days will be filled with new experiences and adjustment. The only change in your partner?s life, however, is the empty void left by your absence.
2. You?ll never truly know whether your partner has cheated on you, or vice-versa. It?s not just trust that has to be solid, you have to be in a place where your relationship can weather infidelity or openness. And then neither of you should ever ask about it. Not many relationships fit this model.
3. A LDR where one partner can leave work at 5 and be in their partner?s bed by midnight has a MUCH stronger chance of surviving than something that takes longer for travel. And, ideally, it should cost no more than a tank of gas.
4. Clear the stinky sock phase first. You should have lived with your partner and made sure that you two were compatible?i.e. can deal with each other?s stinky socks- when the distance disappears down the road. If not, you?re just gambling.
5. Have a sunset clause? LDR?s that are open ended are doomed.
6. The best way to stay out of trouble is to stay out of trouble. You can?t live the way you live normally. We?re mammals, and primates at that, we crave social interaction, including touch. Stay away from events where you are going to be tempted. The longer the LDR, the harder turning down those events will be, and the more tempted you will get.
7. If it is going to be more than a few months, one or both of you is going to lose your shit. Be ready.
8. If one or both of you are prone to addiction or bad personal habits, be warned?it?s those addictions that will fill that void. You?ll tell yourself that the addictive behavior is temporary. I?m looking right at you, person being left behind.
9. If your partner breaks up with you during an LDR, rest assured that it?s not just that the relationship isn?t working, it?s that there?s someone else lined up that they want to pursue, even if they don?t tell you. Let the relationship go.
10. If you are dating someone LDR that you met online, you should seriously consider why you aren?t seeing someone that lives close by. I would argue that, unless you are in a truly rural/remote area, it?s more about you than you not finding a good partner. Whatever ?it? is that is causing the problem will surface immediately upon uniting with this LDR partner.
~C
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Duana?s response: ?The Types Of People Who Choose LDR?s?
Dear Mr. Corvid,?
Thank you for the insightful, cogent list of how-to?s in the world of LDR?s. I found many to be spot-on and especially liked your contribution that the leave-ee will feel much more at a loss than the leave-er, who will be distracted with new opportunities in a new life.
But there are two points I?d like to clarify a bit.?
Taking your point #4: ?Clear the stinky sock phase first. You should have lived with your partner and made sure that you two were compatible?i.e. can deal with each other?s stinky socks- when the distance disappears down the road. If not, you?re just gambling.?
Although it?s very popular to believe so, it?s clear from numerous studies that living with others is not a requirement for a happy union (You can that article at http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/commitment-or-lack-thereof-the-trouble-with-shacking-up.html ); indeed, people who live together before marriage appear to be gambling more than those who don?t, when you consider the later outcomes in terms of happiness and divorce/failure rates, and Commitment?or lack thereof?is apparently the reason. And in the LDR research, even those who did happily cohabit (married or otherwise) before moving to a LDR weren?t protected by the former closeness.
And your point #10 intrigued me as well: ?If you are dating someone LDR that you met online, you should seriously consider why you aren?t seeing someone that lives close by. I would argue that, unless you are in a truly rural/remote area, it?s more about you than you not finding a good partner. Whatever ?it? is that is causing the problem will surface immediately upon uniting with this LDR partner.?
Now this is really interesting, because I think there are types of people especially prone to initiate LDR?s. That is, they intentionally start relationships that *have never been geographically proximal*.
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Type #1 may be gays and lesbians. Acouple weeks ago, I was quoted on CultureMap (http://austin.culturemap.com/newsdetail/02-10-12-13-53-looking-for-love-in-all-the-wrong-places-meet-austins-top-datingrelationship-bloggers/) as saying that most people marry someone they were introduced to by friends or family. Well, that?s still true of straight folks: Although 23% of the straight relationships, total, begin online, those who marry still tend to have met using The Friends & Family Plan. But for the same-sex oriented, current stats put *61%* of all new relationships starting online (Research by Rosenfeld, 2010).
Not tough to see why that would be the case, given still-existent stigma, a smaller per-capita dating pool, and possible pressures to keep things on the down-low.?
Unfortunately, gay or straight, people who meet online tend to idealize one another and then become a bit disillusioned when meeting the actual person; they know more about one another than couples who met other ways, sometimes, but they also tend to like each other less after meeting than before (research by Norton and others, 2007). Again, these results speak to a pattern and there are many exceptions, my own marriage being a case in point. I met Vic online and I like him now more than then ;).
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Type #2 of people who choose to launch a LDR without ever having been proximal might include people who *want to move* to a particular geographic area. This applies, for instance, to mail-order brides, a historical and still-existent phenomenon where women (and increasingly men) who want to relocate to another country or region will offer themselves as prospective spouses to those already living in the desired locale. They may feel that they aren?t a good fit with the politics, economics, and/or sociocultural rules of the place they?re actually from. (I?m guilty of this?I intentionally dated men in Austin, figuring I could love a man in Austin as well as a man from anywhere else, and then I would live in Austin. Bingo.)
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And then there?s Type #3, the people who pursue LDR?s from the outset because *they do not wish to truly be intimate with anyone*. Actually, this type may launch a LDR at any point?beginning or middle or end?of a relationship. Feeling either ill at ease with intimacy, or valuing independence more than interdependence?either can be the motive. And I?m going to write much more on that topic for next week?s article.?
But for now, I?ll leave it at this: If you?re dating someone who is *not* pining when you?re apart, but who instead relishes the freedom and time away; if *you?re* the only one suffering during prolonged separations; then you?re probably with this style person.
I?ve encountered Type #3 a lot (or more accurately, the distressed partners of Type #3) in letters and amongst clients and students, and I think this type accounts for at least some of that curious phenomenon where people become likely to break apart after a successful LDR turns into something geographically proximal. Yes, data indicate that some of those break-ups are due to people idealizing one another and burying their Issues. But data *also* show that some of those folks resent having their freedom trampled once the distance is gone.
More on that?soon.
Thanks again for a great list, Corvid.
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From Tom:? ?I?m A Type #4?
I guess I?m a type #4 then ;-) since I?m none of the others.
I met a person in a discussion group run by a major newspaper. We clicked mentally, then began a one-on-one correspondence. When she invited me to meet her in a vacation location, I was open, interested, and a little apprehensive. But meeting her ended all those concerns and we then were together via LDR for three straight years.
Why were we together? Because we were both looking for a real connection as opposed to the ones that had failed for us in our previous ?real lives.? She and I were both open to seeing where this would go, and it was never about avoiding true intimacy. Hey, everyone has his/her own tolerance for closeness, but we looked forward to more time together. We weren?t sighing in relief when we had to go back to our respective cities, 6 hours apart.
Why did we part, last year? Because we both realized that we needed to focus on the lives of our families and friends where we were. Neither of us was willing/able to move to be together *within any reasonable time frame (< 10 years, say)*. And the electronic communication also began to fail us.
But I have pictures that show how good we were together. I learned a lot about love and about my own issues in the past three years. And I think my next relationship is going to benefit.
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Duana?s response:
Dear Tom,?
I?m sorry that relationship didn?t ultimately work out, but it certainly sounds worthwhile. Not everything worthwhile lasts a lifetime?but it?s valuable nevertheless.
And you?re right, there?s a Type #4 I missed: Those who met online and happened to fall in love.
It reminds me of a couple I know who met in a chat room in the mid-90?s. He was in CA, she was in NY, and they didn?t go online for the purpose of meeting someone?they went to discuss an interest and wound up falling in love. In their case, they arranged an in-person meeting, then arranged a wedding and a move (she moved to CA). They now have two kids and have been married for 14 years!
So there ya go: Type #4: Those who happened to meet online and fall in love.
Cheers,
Duana
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Do you have a question for Duana?? Email her at Duana@LoveScienceMedia.com.
All material copyrighted by LoveScience Media and Duana C. Welch, Ph.D., 2012.
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Do you have a question for Duana?? Email her atDuana@LoveScienceMedia.com.
All material copyrighted by LoveScience Media and Duana C. Welch, Ph.D., 2012.
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Related LoveScience articles:
The article this one was based on, Long Distance Relationships:http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/long-distance-relationships-the-good-the-bad-the-frequent-fl.html
Young Love, Young Marriage: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/young-love-young-marriage.html
When First Love Is True Love: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/when-first-love-is-true-love-re-igniting-the-old-flame.html
Why Looking Up Your First Love On Facebook Can Ruin Your Marriage: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/why-not-to-look-up-that-old-flame-on-facebook-or-how-to-wrec.html
Geographic distance as a dating *advantage*:http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/absence-illness-making-the-heart-grow-fonder.html
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The author wishes to thank the following scientists and sources:
Laura Stafford, for many studies of those in LDR?s.? It was her and her research team that found that LDR couples?idealize each other and perpetuate the ideal via their behavior,?minimizing topics that could lead to disagreement, that?one in three LDR partners break up within 3 months of reuniting, and that some couples have a hard time readjusting to a loss of personal autonomy?following the reuniting.?
John Gottman for his 40 years of research on marital happiness, including the finding that it takes 20 positive interactions per 1 negative interaction to thrive? http://www.gottman.com/51326/Dr-John-Gottman.html ??http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Principles-Making-Marriage-Work/dp/0609805797/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1332342393&sr=1-1? ?
Source: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/qa-from-long-distance-relationships.html
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